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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:04 am 
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2019 has been a strange year for Ferrari. The team that have traditionally had a championship challenger and a rear gunner have had 2 genuine title contenders (setting aside relative car pace) this year. And of the 20 races so far run, Vettel - a 4 time champion, with more than a decade of experience under his belt - has beaten Leclerc - a rookie with just one year's experience, in a Sauber of all things - in just 11 of those 20 races. Granted, that is a (slim) majority. But let's look at this in more detail, focusing not so much on the successes but the major errors made by each driver.

In Australia, the team did realistically all they could. A 4-5 finish, favouring Seb, made total sense.

Bahrain rocked the form book. Badly. Leclerc was dominant. If not for his mechanical woes, he would have taken a convincing win in only his second start for Ferrari. That contrasted sharply with Vettel, who couldn't seem to avoid his tail-happy Ferrari's desire to take up ballet lessons. Echoes of Massa at Silverstone in 2008, but without the rain. First major point against Vettel.

China was another quiet affair, a 3-5 result in favour of Vettel. Honestly, all I can really remember of that race now is the fastest lap for Gasly. Azerbaijan waws another 3-5 to Vettel, again without much to report, and the same again with Spain's 4-5. Bahrain was starting to look like a flash in the pan at this point.

Monaco. This offers Vettel a reprieve, with Leclerc's impatience ruining his race. So that's now one point apiece.

Canada, on paper, goes in Vettel's favour. But there's the small matter of nearly putting Hamilton in the wall after cutting the chicane. Despite the double podium, Vettel's actions there score him a second point. The equality is gone again.

France. This was the start of a short period of domination by Leclerc over Vettel, but there's no glaring error here to call out for either driver.

Austria. Leclerc should have won this one as well, which would bring Ferrari to a theoretical 3 wins, but in the end Verstappen used his experience and knowledge of just how far he could push the stewards (and the Ferrari) without a penalty to his advantage. And Leclerc chalked it up as a lesson learned. We'll revisit this point later.

Silverstone was a terrible day for Vettel. He'd been outqualified already, pretty convincingly, and had to fight his way through. In the end, all he could do was ram Verstappen and basically end both drivers' chances of a podium. Max was lucky he could limp to 5th. Leclerc ended up on the podium, while Vettel followed the Williams cars home, with only himself to blame. The score stands at 3-1.

Germany highlighted a major flaw in Leclerc's skillset, which we saw last year at the same race. Wet driving isn't his strength. Seb made the podium, and Leclerc ended up in the wall. 3-2.

Hungary was a bit of a non-event for Ferrari, distantly following home Verstappen and a truly on form Hamilton.

Belgium was the first time either driver actually managed to put a mark in the win column, rather than just the "should have been" column. Leclerc dominated the weekend, although there's nothing to mark against Vettel here. Nonetheless, it had to hurt that Leclerc legitimately beat him to the first Ferrari win of the year.

If Belgium was painful, Italy was just kicking a man while he was down. Leclerc pulled off a Ferrari win on Italian soil, complete with a few moves learned from Max in Austria. The Tifosi were elated. And what of Vettel? An unforced spin. A needless ram of Stroll. And 13th place. 4-2.

Singapore is a difficult one. Neither driver made a mistake, but most would argue that Leclerc was robbed of a 3rd straight win. But there's no points to be given here, so let's move on.

Russia. Vettel's petulance, prior to his engine failure, isn't the worst thing listed here. That said, it added unnecessarily to the discord in the team. 5-2, if only because as team leader (at least, in theory) he should be bringing the team together, a la Schumacher (I know, I know...), rather than causing further tensions.

Japan was a bit of a non-event for Leclerc but there was nothing obviously wrong with his performance, other than Vettel simply beating him. The same is also true in Mexico.

America. Some blame Vettel for his suspension failure, some don't. I'll be charitable here and say that without complete consensus, no point awarded. The way Leclerc's suspension obliterated itself after only a light touch in Brazil helps his case too.

Which of course brings us to today. The Brazilian Grand Prix. Every single person who discussed this incident (save one) agreed that Vettel was either almost wholly, or wholly to blame for the double DNF. And the footage certainly supports that.

So that's 6-2 against Vettel. Leclerc, the relative rookie, has only a third of that number. He also has double the number of wins, and also of potential wins, compared to the 4-time WDC.

What, if any, future does Seb have in the sport? Does anyone expect another Ferrari contract to come his way? And if not, what's his next move?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:22 am 
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"The future of Sebastien Vettel" and yet the essay of a post is 95% about the past :lol:

I think he'll stay as long as he can get a good team to pay him to drive. His performances of recent times must be frustrating him, but I think he will still have motivation.

I think most drivers are eager to see the changes for 2021.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:36 am 
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The better topic is the future of Ferrari. At what point do they decide to move on from Vettel as an organization? They cut ties with Alonso without him ever having to go into this kind of extended period of questionable form. I think Leclerc is the new golden boy (he and Max that is). It makes sense for them to prepare for this new era with a new main man; one who has shown himself to be at least Vettel's equal despite his youth and inexperience.

That said, unlike Alonso, Vettel seems to have cultivated very good internal relationships at Ferrari and has avoided saying negative things about the team in the press for the most part. He hasn't caused too much drama for the team and they don't seem eager to move away from him. Keeping him means that their drivers will likely continue to take points off of each other and just hurt each other in various ways.

I think this is a time that calls for decisive leadership at Ferrari but I don't particularly think they have that.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:42 am 
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The last three seasons have not been kind to Sebastian Vettel.

This season has certainly seen peak density of issues, but we 2017/2018 saw the title conceded early in a car that should have taken it to the final race had it not been for some poor calls from the pitlane and judgement from cockpit.

While team and drivers are allowed to make mistakes, incidents like destroying the scales in Brazil 2018, and especially swiping Hamilton in Baku 2017 are unforgivable.

What we saw in Brazil yesterday, is certainly the exclamation mark at the end of a long string of unbelievable incidents, and the consequence of causing a double DNF for the team and the end of a season marked for being a clumsy operation by Maranelo is only going to serve to underline it and highlight it in bold.

What makes things worse for him is the incident was basically a greatest hits of all of his major incidents. The parallel to Istanbul 2010 is obvious, his denial of facts interview had shades of his Baku 2017 interview, coupled with his seemingly recurrent lapses in spatial awareness, and the way he reacts when he's hit with the red mist.

The collision was 100% his fault. There is no question about that. However, the incident is not so clear cut. Charles played dirty, and I think that's what Vettel is referring to in his angry message.

When they hit, it was a consequence of Vettel's line moving across onto Leclerc's - but if you rewind to turn three, Charles did his Monza special squeeze on Vettel, giving less than a car's width, putting Vettel on the grass. This caused Vettel to have to point his car back on to the track, and this is the line that then collided with Charles.

There are several things to unpack here - and this isn't the thread to go into detail on that, but the short is - while the FIA have deemed the grey area of this type of squeeze to be permissible post Austria - Charles's move would not normally be allowed (by the team) to be done on a team mate due to the risk of a double DNF. Vettel was rightfully incensed by it, but how he dealt with it is the problem.

I don't think that his spatial awareness is so bad he cut across Charles by accident. I think it was deliberate - he just didn't intend to touch. I think it was an attempt to buzz him in anger for the move - but he got it wrong. Either he misjudged Leclerc's speed, or thought Leclerc would yield - either way, the red mist possessed him much in the same way we've seen time and time again.

This isn't what Ferrari needs. Alonso was criticized for always putting himself above the team - but Alonso was weakest at the politics of F1. Vettel has built up good relationships inside the team, Vettel never gives negative interviews. But if you look at his actual on track conduct, I think that Vettel has been far more self serving than Alonso ever was.

The Ferrari Vettel relationship has an inevitability to it now. Even if the finger can be pointed to Leclerc for being at fault for some of the errors in judgement, he's the Ferrari rookie - not the 4x WDC on $45million a year. Short of Vettel winning a dominating year for Ferrari next year (which I see as unlikely as even if they have a dominating car he will have an equal team mate) next season will be his last.

Depending on the fall out from Brazil, it's no longer far fetched that he may not be there next year.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:29 am 
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Vettel had the pace over Charles again. SC brought Charles back with fresh tyres. But still Vettel had a good run on him and was going to regain his place. It was unfortunate that his rear tyre touched. It was a racing incident. I do not think Vettel cares too much but Charles is the one who said couple of times that he wants to be number1 and Ferrari will make the final call :uhoh:

If Ferrari has to choose either one I think they will take Charles unless he has a bad year in 2020. Simply because he is young. Vettel may not be driving at his best but still can beat Charles. Would like to see him in RBR in relaxed environment. Max probably will like to go to Mercedes if next year does not go well for RBR. Max, Vettel, Hamilton do not have contract for 2021 so let us see what happens.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:05 am 
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Vettel succumbs to the red mist once again. I suspect he was a little hot at being passed and made a decision to squeeze Chuck. Clearly a part of his head stops working when emotions start to do a job on him.

Because of this, he's gotta go. Much too childish to be piloting a rocket.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:15 am 
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Tufty wrote:
2019 has been a strange year for Ferrari. The team that have traditionally had a championship challenger and a rear gunner have had 2 genuine title contenders (setting aside relative car pace) this year. .......... double the number of wins, and also of poteFerrari contract to come his way? And if not, what's his next move?


Last 3? Why, was 2016 a good year for him?

In the past six seasons, ie 2014 to 2019, Seb has had only one year where he wasn't criticised. 2015.

2014 he was thrashed by Ricciardo.
2015 was good, with a subservient teammate.
2016, Seb was having insane meltdowns and was beaten by Raikkonen in qualifying. No wins.
2017 was lightly error strewn, with big consequences. Insane meltdown in Baku, inexplicable.
2018 was insane in the amount of errors in probably thr best car.
2019, being beaten by a new young teammate again, inexplicable racing errors, and an inability to see his racing errors, doing the same mistakes as he did in 2010. Turkey 2010 is the same as Brazil 2019. And his crash into Button in Spa 2010 is similsr to his crash into Verstappen in Silverstone 2019.

I love his personality, the best I've seen in any F1 driver. But for his racecraft and errors and consistency, he's fallen more and more in my opinion every year. Confirming that's he's merely a good driver, winning championships in rockets. And since 2014, utterly exposed.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:44 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
That said, unlike Alonso, Vettel seems to have cultivated very good internal relationships at Ferrari and has avoided saying negative things about the team in the press for the most part. He hasn't caused too much drama for the team and they don't seem eager to move away from him. Keeping him means that their drivers will likely continue to take points off of each other and just hurt each other in various ways.


Unlike Alonso though, Vettel has made a large amount of mistakes. Alonso, was very consistent in his qualifying, performances and results. Vettel/Ferrari have been consistent on mistake after mistake. I remember Alonso competing for the title in a car that was clearly 2nd best to the Red Bull. I'm not surprised how this season has panned out for Ferrari/Vettel and Leclerc. We saw this last season and the year before that. They became their worst enemy and also have a habit of being in denial that the problems exist "it wasn't my fault".

It would be hard to impossible for Ferrari to bad mouth Alonso for his on track performances. We didn't see him consistently clipping cars, random spins and making costly mistakes. I'd place a large bet that if Alonso was still in that Ferrari, they'd have more wins under their belt in the last few seasons. And I think that's one thing most F1 fans will agree on.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:17 am 
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He has improved the last 3-4 races, he looked finished 5 races ago to be honest. Leclerc was showing him up for the middle of the season but he has bounced back well. If that heavy beating carried on he might have retired but I think he will stay now.

His problem is, because Leclerc makes many errors - Seb as the experienced driver should beat Leclerc by not making so many errors himself. Even if Leclerc is slightly quicker overall. However, both are really error prone. It’s a tough situation for Ferrari because there pace is quite similar, especially in the race.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:46 am 
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I really try to like Vettel as a driver (finger aside), but he really does seem to have a problem with the red mist and being in close proximity with other drivers in general.
Off the top of my head, here is a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially). He sometimes seems to think the other car disappears when it passes his cockpit.

Leclerc – Brazil 2019
Verstappen – Silverstone 2019
Verstappen – Japan 2018
Bottas – France 2018
Stroll – Malaysia 2017 (Not during the race but shows a lack of spatial awareness)
Verstappen (& Raikkonen) – Singapore 2017
Rosberg – Malaysia 2016
Lewis – Azerbaijan 2017
Karthikeyan – Malaysia 2012
Button – Belgium 2010
Webber – Turkey 2010

Now he has problem, when faced with a top level team mate he gets beaten and the longer he continues the better the 2010-2013 Newey Rocket ships look. Maybe a sabbatical or even retirement really is in order?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:56 am 
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DeepPyro69 wrote:
I really try to like Vettel as a driver (finger aside), but he really does seem to have a problem with the red mist and being in close proximity with other drivers in general.
Off the top of my head, here is a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially). He sometimes seems to think the other car disappears when it passes his cockpit.

Leclerc – Brazil 2019
Verstappen – Silverstone 2019
Verstappen – Japan 2018
Bottas – France 2018
Stroll – Malaysia 2017 (Not during the race but shows a lack of spatial awareness)
Verstappen (& Raikkonen) – Singapore 2017
Rosberg – Malaysia 2016
Lewis – Azerbaijan 2017
Karthikeyan – Malaysia 2012
Button – Belgium 2010
Webber – Turkey 2010

Now he has problem, when faced with a top level team mate he gets beaten and the longer he continues the better the 2010-2013 Newey Rocket ships look. Maybe a sabbatical or even retirement really is in order?


In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen


Singapore 2017 - chopping across a wet track in reduced visibility puts it at least a partial responsibility.

Italy 2019 - I gave him the benefit of doubt from this list due to his claim he couldn’t see over cockpit sides, initial spin and reckless rejoining his fault though.

Agree we need to do a comparison with Hamilton and Verstappen, can’t think of any major Hamilton ones (Albon 2019 being a rarity and maybe pit lane Raikkonen one......Canada?) Verstappen will be a long one, but some would argue he’s not a multi world champion (yet)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:22 pm 
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DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen


Singapore 2017 - chopping across a wet track in reduced visibility puts it at least a partial responsibility.

Italy 2019 - I gave him the benefit of doubt from this list due to his claim he couldn’t see over cockpit sides, initial spin and reckless rejoining his fault though.

Agree we need to do a comparison with Hamilton and Verstappen, can’t think of any major Hamilton ones (Albon 2019 being a rarity and maybe pit lane Raikkonen one......Canada?) Verstappen will be a long one, but some would argue he’s not a multi world champion (yet)

That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
2019 has been a strange year for Ferrari. The team that have traditionally had a championship challenger and a rear gunner have had 2 genuine title contenders (setting aside relative car pace) this year. And of the 20 races so far run, Vettel - a 4 time champion, with more than a decade of experience under his belt - has beaten Leclerc - a rookie with just one year's experience, in a Sauber of all things - in just 11 of those 20 races. Granted, that is a (slim) majority. But let's look at this in more detail, focusing not so much on the successes but the major errors made by each driver.

In Australia, the team did realistically all they could. A 4-5 finish, favouring Seb, made total sense.

Bahrain rocked the form book. Badly. Leclerc was dominant. If not for his mechanical woes, he would have taken a convincing win in only his second start for Ferrari. That contrasted sharply with Vettel, who couldn't seem to avoid his tail-happy Ferrari's desire to take up ballet lessons. Echoes of Massa at Silverstone in 2008, but without the rain. First major point against Vettel.

China was another quiet affair, a 3-5 result in favour of Vettel. Honestly, all I can really remember of that race now is the fastest lap for Gasly. Azerbaijan waws another 3-5 to Vettel, again without much to report, and the same again with Spain's 4-5. Bahrain was starting to look like a flash in the pan at this point.

Monaco. This offers Vettel a reprieve, with Leclerc's impatience ruining his race. So that's now one point apiece.

Canada, on paper, goes in Vettel's favour. But there's the small matter of nearly putting Hamilton in the wall after cutting the chicane. Despite the double podium, Vettel's actions there score him a second point. The equality is gone again.

France. This was the start of a short period of domination by Leclerc over Vettel, but there's no glaring error here to call out for either driver.

Austria. Leclerc should have won this one as well, which would bring Ferrari to a theoretical 3 wins, but in the end Verstappen used his experience and knowledge of just how far he could push the stewards (and the Ferrari) without a penalty to his advantage. And Leclerc chalked it up as a lesson learned. We'll revisit this point later.

Silverstone was a terrible day for Vettel. He'd been outqualified already, pretty convincingly, and had to fight his way through. In the end, all he could do was ram Verstappen and basically end both drivers' chances of a podium. Max was lucky he could limp to 5th. Leclerc ended up on the podium, while Vettel followed the Williams cars home, with only himself to blame. The score stands at 3-1.

Germany highlighted a major flaw in Leclerc's skillset, which we saw last year at the same race. Wet driving isn't his strength. Seb made the podium, and Leclerc ended up in the wall. 3-2.

Hungary was a bit of a non-event for Ferrari, distantly following home Verstappen and a truly on form Hamilton.

Belgium was the first time either driver actually managed to put a mark in the win column, rather than just the "should have been" column. Leclerc dominated the weekend, although there's nothing to mark against Vettel here. Nonetheless, it had to hurt that Leclerc legitimately beat him to the first Ferrari win of the year.

If Belgium was painful, Italy was just kicking a man while he was down. Leclerc pulled off a Ferrari win on Italian soil, complete with a few moves learned from Max in Austria. The Tifosi were elated. And what of Vettel? An unforced spin. A needless ram of Stroll. And 13th place. 4-2.

Singapore is a difficult one. Neither driver made a mistake, but most would argue that Leclerc was robbed of a 3rd straight win. But there's no points to be given here, so let's move on.

Russia. Vettel's petulance, prior to his engine failure, isn't the worst thing listed here. That said, it added unnecessarily to the discord in the team. 5-2, if only because as team leader (at least, in theory) he should be bringing the team together, a la Schumacher (I know, I know...), rather than causing further tensions.

Japan was a bit of a non-event for Leclerc but there was nothing obviously wrong with his performance, other than Vettel simply beating him. The same is also true in Mexico.

America. Some blame Vettel for his suspension failure, some don't. I'll be charitable here and say that without complete consensus, no point awarded. The way Leclerc's suspension obliterated itself after only a light touch in Brazil helps his case too.

Which of course brings us to today. The Brazilian Grand Prix. Every single person who discussed this incident (save one) agreed that Vettel was either almost wholly, or wholly to blame for the double DNF. And the footage certainly supports that.

So that's 6-2 against Vettel. Leclerc, the relative rookie, has only a third of that number. He also has double the number of wins, and also of potential wins, compared to the 4-time WDC.

What, if any, future does Seb have in the sport? Does anyone expect another Ferrari contract to come his way? And if not, what's his next move?

I just want to highlight that in one of the early season races Vettel beat Leclerc because of team orders were Leclerc was ordered to cede position to Vettel despite Vettel seemingly being little quicker, and in Germany when the track was wet Leclerc was challenging for a podium position whilst Vettel was struggling to keep up with midfield cars.

Leclerc's crash I believe was on dry tyres when the track was not fully dry, a fate that befell other drivers on the same corner including Hamilton whilst Verstappen had a spin on another part of the track. Vettel was helped by the multiple SC's which helped him catch up the time lost and only really came into his own in the final laps when the track was just about fully dry, in the wet it was actually Vettel that was poor.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:35 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Tufty wrote:
2019 has been a strange year for Ferrari. The team that have traditionally had a championship challenger and a rear gunner have had 2 genuine title contenders (setting aside relative car pace) this year. .......... double the number of wins, and also of poteFerrari contract to come his way? And if not, what's his next move?


Last 3? Why, was 2016 a good year for him?

In the past six seasons, ie 2014 to 2019, Seb has had only one year where he wasn't criticised. 2015.

2014 he was thrashed by Ricciardo.
2015 was good, with a subservient teammate.
2016, Seb was having insane meltdowns and was beaten by Raikkonen in qualifying. No wins.
2017 was lightly error strewn, with big consequences. Insane meltdown in Baku, inexplicable.
2018 was insane in the amount of errors in probably thr best car.
2019, being beaten by a new young teammate again, inexplicable racing errors, and an inability to see his racing errors, doing the same mistakes as he did in 2010. Turkey 2010 is the same as Brazil 2019. And his crash into Button in Spa 2010 is similsr to his crash into Verstappen in Silverstone 2019.

I love his personality, the best I've seen in any F1 driver. But for his racecraft and errors and consistency, he's fallen more and more in my opinion every year. Confirming that's he's merely a good driver, winning championships in rockets. And since 2014, utterly exposed.

I agree with the comparisons from 2010 that Vettel has simply not evolved his race craft and was it not around this time he got labeled as the crash kid?

He won the title in 2010 and that label faded away as he started to dominate F1 but the races he won in that period largely composed of him qualifying on pole and driving off into the distance, not requiring much race craft as such.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:43 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
I really try to like Vettel as a driver (finger aside), but he really does seem to have a problem with the red mist and being in close proximity with other drivers in general.
Off the top of my head, here is a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially). He sometimes seems to think the other car disappears when it passes his cockpit.

Leclerc – Brazil 2019
Verstappen – Silverstone 2019
Verstappen – Japan 2018
Bottas – France 2018
Stroll – Malaysia 2017 (Not during the race but shows a lack of spatial awareness)
Verstappen (& Raikkonen) – Singapore 2017
Rosberg – Malaysia 2016
Lewis – Azerbaijan 2017
Karthikeyan – Malaysia 2012
Button – Belgium 2010
Webber – Turkey 2010

Now he has problem, when faced with a top level team mate he gets beaten and the longer he continues the better the 2010-2013 Newey Rocket ships look. Maybe a sabbatical or even retirement really is in order?


In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen

In Singapore he did exactly the same as yesterday, chopping across cars in spite of not having a full overlap.

I agree that going back on any drivers career you are probably going to find a lot of incidents but comparison with the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen are not apt, these are drivers that have clearly improved in that respect but with Vettel has he really changed that much since 2010?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen


Singapore 2017 - chopping across a wet track in reduced visibility puts it at least a partial responsibility.

Italy 2019 - I gave him the benefit of doubt from this list due to his claim he couldn’t see over cockpit sides, initial spin and reckless rejoining his fault though.

Agree we need to do a comparison with Hamilton and Verstappen, can’t think of any major Hamilton ones (Albon 2019 being a rarity and maybe pit lane Raikkonen one......Canada?) Verstappen will be a long one, but some would argue he’s not a multi world champion (yet)

That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this

In Singapore you need to see the head on shot if you think it wasn't a chop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi-qitmfvlI

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Last edited by pokerman on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
I really try to like Vettel as a driver (finger aside), but he really does seem to have a problem with the red mist and being in close proximity with other drivers in general.
Off the top of my head, here is a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially). He sometimes seems to think the other car disappears when it passes his cockpit.

Leclerc – Brazil 2019
Verstappen – Silverstone 2019
Verstappen – Japan 2018
Bottas – France 2018
Stroll – Malaysia 2017 (Not during the race but shows a lack of spatial awareness)
Verstappen (& Raikkonen) – Singapore 2017
Rosberg – Malaysia 2016
Lewis – Azerbaijan 2017
Karthikeyan – Malaysia 2012
Button – Belgium 2010
Webber – Turkey 2010

Now he has problem, when faced with a top level team mate he gets beaten and the longer he continues the better the 2010-2013 Newey Rocket ships look. Maybe a sabbatical or even retirement really is in order?


In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen

In Singapore he did exactly the same as yesterday, chopping across cars in spite of not having a full overlap.

I agree that going back on any drivers career you are probably going to find a lot of incidents but comparison with the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen are not apt, these are drivers that have clearly improved in that respect but with Vettel has he really changed that much since 2010?


How exactly?

Didnt Hamilton just collect Albon this last race had that been Vettel you will be harping on about it?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:18 pm 
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vettel is a very fast driver but an average racer. the only time he doesnt make mistakes is when out front by himself. all his career he has made mistakes when in the pack, although it is getting worse with age. in terms of points, ferrari would probably have done better with kimi and leclerc this season.
though i think vettel will be there next season, riccardo leclerc would be a great pairing. pace wise similar but at this stage riccardo would probably get more points over a season.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:27 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
I really try to like Vettel as a driver (finger aside), but he really does seem to have a problem with the red mist and being in close proximity with other drivers in general.
Off the top of my head, here is a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially). He sometimes seems to think the other car disappears when it passes his cockpit.

Leclerc – Brazil 2019
Verstappen – Silverstone 2019
Verstappen – Japan 2018
Bottas – France 2018
Stroll – Malaysia 2017 (Not during the race but shows a lack of spatial awareness)
Verstappen (& Raikkonen) – Singapore 2017
Rosberg – Malaysia 2016
Lewis – Azerbaijan 2017
Karthikeyan – Malaysia 2012
Button – Belgium 2010
Webber – Turkey 2010

Now he has problem, when faced with a top level team mate he gets beaten and the longer he continues the better the 2010-2013 Newey Rocket ships look. Maybe a sabbatical or even retirement really is in order?


In Singapore 2017 he was collected, he did not cause the crash. I would however add Stroll in Italy 2019.

Not that it changes a lot, this is a long list to defend. But as for comparison, we should really do the same for Hamilton and Verstapen

In Singapore he did exactly the same as yesterday, chopping across cars in spite of not having a full overlap.

I agree that going back on any drivers career you are probably going to find a lot of incidents but comparison with the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen are not apt, these are drivers that have clearly improved in that respect but with Vettel has he really changed that much since 2010?


How exactly?

Didnt Hamilton just collect Albon this last race had that been Vettel you will be harping on about it?

Not as an isolated incident, anyone can make a mistake now and again.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:40 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
vettel is a very fast driver but an average racer. the only time he doesnt make mistakes is when out front by himself. all his career he has made mistakes when in the pack, although it is getting worse with age. in terms of points, ferrari would probably have done better with kimi and leclerc this season.
though i think vettel will be there next season, riccardo leclerc would be a great pairing. pace wise similar but at this stage riccardo would probably get more points over a season.

That's a good call, Ricciardo and Leclerc for Ferrari in 2021, Ricciardo is also part Italian to boot.

Trouble is I still want to see Vettel in F1, he is a fast driver after all, but were would he go?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:42 pm 
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DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
vettel is a very fast driver but an average racer. the only time he doesnt make mistakes is when out front by himself. all his career he has made mistakes when in the pack, although it is getting worse with age. in terms of points, ferrari would probably have done better with kimi and leclerc this season.
though i think vettel will be there next season, riccardo leclerc would be a great pairing. pace wise similar but at this stage riccardo would probably get more points over a season.

That's a good call, Ricciardo and Leclerc for Ferrari in 2021, Ricciardo is also part Italian to boot.

Trouble is I still want to see Vettel in F1, he is a fast driver after all, but were would he go?

Ricciardo hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this year though, has he? Would Ferrari pit him against Leclerc? I would love to see this one.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:45 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
vettel is a very fast driver but an average racer. the only time he doesnt make mistakes is when out front by himself. all his career he has made mistakes when in the pack, although it is getting worse with age. in terms of points, ferrari would probably have done better with kimi and leclerc this season.
though i think vettel will be there next season, riccardo leclerc would be a great pairing. pace wise similar but at this stage riccardo would probably get more points over a season.

That's a good call, Ricciardo and Leclerc for Ferrari in 2021, Ricciardo is also part Italian to boot.

Trouble is I still want to see Vettel in F1, he is a fast driver after all, but were would he go?

Ricciardo hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this year though, has he? Would Ferrari pit him against Leclerc? I would love to see this one.

He doesn't have silly spins and was solid enough last time he drove for a top team.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.

I know, no one is saying that Lewis is a menace out there, don't worry. Just comparing numbers out of curiosity, nothing more


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!


Dammit, knew there was another Spa one, yeah 2011 Massa & Hamilton were like magnets 😂

Pretty sure only two Massa 2011’s was Hamilton’s fault though, didn’t Massa get a penalty for Japan?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:50 pm 
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DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!


Dammit, knew there was another Spa one, yeah 2011 Massa & Hamilton were like magnets 😂

Pretty sure only two Massa 2011’s was Hamilton’s fault though, didn’t Massa get a penalty for Japan?

Yes, but I think it was only one that was clearly Massa's fault, I can't remember which one though


Edit - to fix horrible writing


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.


Last race will show that under pressure he can make mistakes as well no one is immune from it.

He was removed from his comfort zone and we can see that all the BS about complaining about tyres to motivate himself is just BS only the performance of the Mercedes has masked it!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:37 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
vettel is a very fast driver but an average racer. the only time he doesnt make mistakes is when out front by himself. all his career he has made mistakes when in the pack, although it is getting worse with age. in terms of points, ferrari would probably have done better with kimi and leclerc this season.
though i think vettel will be there next season, riccardo leclerc would be a great pairing. pace wise similar but at this stage riccardo would probably get more points over a season.


that was the previous Vettel. Even when leading in Canada this year, he messed up. He's just no longer the same.

If not for his huge contract, I doubt he himself would want to continue in F1. There's another 40 million euros to be earned for one last time so obviously, he'd gladly take it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel was clearly upset at being overtaken round the outside by first Hamilton then Leclerc, we have seen that he doesn't like to get passed in that way.
Hamilton actually had the very same response to being passed by Verstappen and also ended up taking someone out.

What is galling though is Vettel acts like it was an accident and fronts up yet Hamilton says 'I messed up' and apologises. Says a lot in my view.

Ferrari management are looking weaker by the day, they will let this continue to slide. Forget winning a WDC or WCC they can't even close out 3rd.


Ultimately, the car has to be quickest. Even Alonso once said as long as the car is the best, the Rosberg-Hamilton crashes would not cost Mercedes the title.

This is a one-off incident and is of no consequence as Ferrari already secuired 2nd. Even if you remove all the errors of Leclerc and Vettel, Hamilton & Mercedes are still the undisputed WDC and WCC.

Ferrari has to build the fastest car. The drivers' squabbles are the least of their concerns now.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm 
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trento wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
vettel is a very fast driver but an average racer. the only time he doesnt make mistakes is when out front by himself. all his career he has made mistakes when in the pack, although it is getting worse with age. in terms of points, ferrari would probably have done better with kimi and leclerc this season.
though i think vettel will be there next season, riccardo leclerc would be a great pairing. pace wise similar but at this stage riccardo would probably get more points over a season.


that was the previous Vettel. Even when leading in Canada this year, he messed up. He's just no longer the same.

If not for his huge contract, I doubt he himself would want to continue in F1. There's another 40 million euros to be earned for one last time so obviously, he'd gladly take it.


Germany 2018 as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:53 pm 
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Well, I have the impression that Binotto is too weak and too much in Vettel's bed in order to act - irrespective of how many wins and points Vettel has cost Ferrari these last couple of years or so. Has ever any Ferrari driver made so many costly mistakes than Vettel?

So, if Vettel does not call it a day himself, he will continue at Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:15 pm 
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DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years

These aren't over aggressive moves across the track though? :?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.

I know, no one is saying that Lewis is a menace out there, don't worry. Just comparing numbers out of curiosity, nothing more

Yeah I've actually had to reread some posts, specifically what was being questioned was moves like Vettel pulled yesterday and not all the collisions that drivers were involved in so many of the 2011 accidents don't meet that criteria anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
That was not a chop in Singapore, but I'm not going to start a debate as it will derail the thread and it won't serve anything.

Italy I'd count, as you mentioned the list was about driver he had hit, accidentally or not. I think this would fall under accidentally hitting someone.

My memory is too bad to try and remember all incidents from all drivers, so I would have to leave this for someone much better at this


Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.


Last race will show that under pressure he can make mistakes as well no one is immune from it.

He was removed from his comfort zone and we can see that all the BS about complaining about tyres to motivate himself is just BS only the performance of the Mercedes has masked it!

So Hamilton making 1 mistake is the same as Vettel making 10 mistakes, and we want to go down this road that Ferrari never had a WDC capable car the last 2 years, it was all too easy in the Mercedes?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
DeepPyro69 wrote:

Okay, overly aggressive move across the track? ;)

Okay, Hamilton

Albon - Brazil 2019
Rosberg - Spain 2016 (More Rosberg in my view, but both at fault)
Button - Canada 2011
Massa - 2011 Monaco
Maldonaldo - 2011 Monaco
Massa - Singapore 2011
Raikkonen - Canada 2008

I can't think of many more, really noticeable how there's hardly any in the last few years


Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.

I know, no one is saying that Lewis is a menace out there, don't worry. Just comparing numbers out of curiosity, nothing more

Yeah I've actually had to reread some posts, specifically what was being questioned was moves like Vettel pulled yesterday and not all the collisions that drivers were involved in so many of the 2011 accidents don't meet that criteria anyway.


The criteria was "a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially)". Why would incidents from 2011 not count? I'm baffled.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:18 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
The criteria was "a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially)". Why would incidents from 2011 not count? I'm baffled.


I am trying to distinguish between 'fault' and a pure 'racing incident'

In 2011, Hamilton was at fault twice (Monaco & Singapore), Massa once (Japan). The other two I would say were racing.

The point is this that these were 8 years ago, and that the Albon incident (definitely Hamilton fault) is an absolute rarity, to which he held up his hands straight away and apologised.

Vettel in contrast has a long list of these incidents and is still having multiple issues this year. And he is still denying he has a problem :?

I would go further and say Hamilton/ Albon was misjudging a gap and being merely overenthusiastic, where the Vettel/ Leclerc incident was petulantly cutting across at high speed when he hadn't cleared his opponent and just plain stupid


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Kobayashi - Spa 2011
Massa - Japan 2011 (I think they had 5 collisions in 2011 the two of them, something like that)

Jesus, 2011 was not a good year for Lewis!

It also was 8 years ago and he learned from it whilst Vettel is still at it.

I know, no one is saying that Lewis is a menace out there, don't worry. Just comparing numbers out of curiosity, nothing more

Yeah I've actually had to reread some posts, specifically what was being questioned was moves like Vettel pulled yesterday and not all the collisions that drivers were involved in so many of the 2011 accidents don't meet that criteria anyway.


The criteria was "a list of drivers he has accidentally (or not) hit where he was at fault (at least partially)". Why would incidents from 2011 not count? I'm baffled.

The list clearly stated incidents were Vettel was passing another car and then turned into the car in the wrong belief that he had cleared the car stating a lack of spatial awareness.

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